The Secret of Getting a Job/Internship in Top Tech Companies, Chat with Maria Atanasova

Yasi: Hi, Maria. Welcome to the Fast Track Podcast.

Maria Atanasova: Hi, I’m excited to be here.

Yasi: I’m excited too to hear how to get into those like high-demand companies. So I’m sure that many people would be interested, you know, in joining Google, have an internship, or finding a job at Amazon, Apple or Netflix or these companies.

And how did you find your first internship at Google when you started?

Maria Atanasova: Yeah, for me, that was a very spur of the moment they had on their careers website, so the internship announced, and I saw it, it seemed like such a far away dream, like joining Google. I was in my first my second year at the university.

And they had the deadline for, I think, the end of December, and I applied two days before the deadline. I was like, ah, yeah, that’s never going to happen, so just randomly. So I applied online and went through the whole interview process for the internship. And I was very surprised to hear back from them, and it was kind of like a dream come true at that moment for me and very, very exciting.

So it was, I didn’t believe that that’s going to happen, and I just took a chance at random, and it all worked out. So, kind of encouraging everyone to try it out. Even if you feel like you’re ready, just try it out. There’s no penalty for trying.

Yasi: What do you think are the factors that help you to get the first internship?

Maria Atanasova: So it requires preparation. I think I was in a perfect time at university for that internship specifically because I was learning all the relevant topics at that time that were relevant for interviews, you know, your algorithms, your data structures, all of that.

Combined with just a very big desire to learn and get started with work. I think that helps you get your foot in the door, kind of with those companies.

Yasi: And then was your second internship and third internship, like, did you decide to stick with Google? Are you happy there?

Maria Atanasova: Yes. So, my first internship was in Europe, in Zurich, actually.

And I really wanted to go to the US. So for me, that was, again, a big dream, something that I’ve never done, and continuing with the same company is a bit easier than just switching around since you don’t have to go through the full interview process. They take the feedback that they already have for you.

And for me, the biggest thing was I already knew all the tools, I already knew kind of how the company worked or what I need to use and work overall. And that’s a big help because you definitely spend a lot of your initial time ramping up. So I felt that if I continue with the same company, it’s going to allow me to make so much more because I already know that initial setup. That’s why I kind of continued with it for my second one, I wanted to see.

And for the third it was I really wanted to join Google full-time, and doing this many internships helps you in the hiring process for full-time because you have this feedback from a lot of different people, so they have a better picture for you.

So I felt that if I stick with the company, that’s going to help me definitely land that full-time job instead of kind of exploring. A lot of people ask me why I explore, but to me, the end goal was I always dreamed of working for Google. So, that was the end goal. So having that set of internships helped me get to that and go and explore within the company, trying out different teams, but so sticking to the same, so I can have that biggest impact because I joined immediately.

I already know all of the initial setups. I don’t have to go through all of the initial learnings, like development courses, because I’m familiar with that, so I can just hit the ground running and immediately start making the impact.

Yasi: So you can build your experiences based on the previous one. So you’re building up, not starting from scratch.

Maria Atanasova: Exactly. Because each of these big companies has a lot of in-house knowledge that you kind of need to learn before you can get started because a lot of them are not using all of the tools that are widely available.

They use things that are built in-house, so you kind of need to learn what is available, how do you use it, where do you find information, how do you overall deal with development and having skipped that phase and that kind of switch allowed me to immediately when I joined as full-time to make changes and make a good impact.

Yasi: And we talk about full time, and you told me that you decided not to finish your university degree. And can you tell us a little bit more about why you made this decision and if this decision has impacted your career later?

Maria Atanasova: So, the moment I did my first internship, and that wasn’t actually at Google, after my first year I did one in Bulgaria, I just fell in love with working and working in the software industry. And I knew that that was the thing I really wanted to do. Just the daily drive of doing it was something very exciting to me. University gave me such a good base. I feel like without those courses, without that knowledge, without those teachers, I would not have been able to get that internship, initial internship at Google.

However, after a certain point in my kind of third, mid-third year, for me it was, well, I’m doing a lot of this university coursework and there are these short-term projects, you know, you do something for a week, and you let it go, you start another, and that just wasn’t the thing that I wanted to do. I wanted to work on real-life problems, in the industry, like solving these long-term projects and solutions, and just be able to do more.

And I just try to extend my internships as much as I can, and at the end of my third one, I was sure that Google was going to say, Nope, we cannot hire you full- time without your university degree, that’s not a thing we do, so I started looking for other companies because I knew that that was the thing I wanted to do.

University wasn’t the path for me. I just wanted to get straight out to the industry. And again, I completely randomly mentioned it to my recruiter that was handling my case, and they said, well, wait, actually, we might be able to do it, don’t give up.

So again, just giving it a shot and try and get out. And of course, in my case, it helped that they already knew me. I already did internships with them; they’ve already invested time and effort into seeing my work. So that, that helped a lot for them, I think, to make the decision as well, too, allow me to join before doing that, and I haven’t seen an issue with that in my career.

I think that after a certain amount of years of experience now counts a lot more than the university degrees since a university degree can get you your foot in the door, so companies notice you, but once you get that company experience, that’s what gets you noticed, and that’s what will lead to more successful hiring.

Yasi: When you were having interviews with Palantir, did they ask you why you don’t have a degree now?

Maria Atanasova: No, it was just something I mentioned. They were like, yeah, we have people that also don’t have degrees, that’s fine. At that level, it’s not something that is that relevant for the job. And I think that nowadays, a lot of companies start to realize that having a degree is not the end all be all for your career because there are so many people who are self-taught that just started being excited about software development at a younger age.

And they just jumped into work immediately, and they have that experience. They have that knowledge that they need to get started for work without the formal education because it’s not, it can give you a foundation, but you could also earn that foundation yourself. It doesn’t need to be through university.

And that’s, I think the beauty of it sector, that a lot more companies are starting to realize that and give you a chance based on your actual abilities and not on what’s on your CV.

Yasi: I also met few people that they will not need software engineer by education or the first profession, they are doing something else, and then they did a Bootcamp, or they learn themselves, and then later they can become a software engineer. So if you can do that later in life, yeah, as you said, you don’t have to learn from the university. You can learn it from the internet, from books, yourself.

Maria Atanasova: Absolutely. I think that it’s such a good industry to just get you.

If you have the interest, it’s not about the exact knowledge that you have, the companies are looking for, they’re looking for that ability to think, the ability to find information, the ability to problem-solve. And that is not at all tied to your exact knowledge. If you are a resourceful person, you can find ways to learn it.

That’s not what a university degree will give you. It can give you a lot of that foundation. So it’s easier for you to get adjusted, but it’s not going to be the one that decides whether or not you’re going to be good in this profession or not.

Yasi: And you mentioned that you are an interviewer at Google, what is a typical recruitment process in the software development department?

Maria Atanasova: So it depends on whether you are applying for an internship or a full-time position.

Yasi: Are the internship processes a bit easier?

Maria Atanasova: So they’re usually just phone interviews, and the full-time start with phone interviews, and they’re in-person interviews. And then nowadays, those in-person interviews are still online.

But after those interviews, usually, all of the feedback goes to something called the hiring committee, which I was also a member of, and there a group of people makes the decision based on feedback, so we read all of the detailed feedback, so it’s usually very, very detailed. It’s almost like a transcript through the interview, and how did the candidates behave and what were the top process, how are they explaining things.

So we go through all of that, and we try to find the positive and the negative signals, and we try to see whether all of that meets the bar, and Google, in particular, has a very, very high hiring bar.

So it’s always erring on the side of, if there’s any doubt, it’s better to say no, but you are never banned from interviewing again. So that’s why, because they’re erring on the side of caution. I was encouraged people, like if you didn’t succeed the first time, try again, your recruiter is going to tell you, like, whether you strike in a year, like half a year, what exactly is kind of the next steps there.

It’s definitely something that you should try and get that experience as soon as you can because it is so much different from real work.

Yasi: You mean like being a candidate?

Maria Atanasova: Yes. Because you’re not like even though now online, you’re in front of a computer when you’re in person, you’re in front of a whiteboard, you’re not in front of a computer, and some companies will go as well started allowing for you to type on a computer.

But again, it’s different because you cannot search online, and you cannot like using a compiler or anything like that. And it’s very different than the usual software development where you spend a lot of the time searching like that. It’s not just typing, it’s a lot of searching online for something similar.

So, in those interviews, you kind of have to show your thought process, and it’s so much about talking aloud. Just whatever comes to your mind, you need to talk so you can show the interviewer why you are thinking that, how are you reaching those decisions in the development. And that is very different from doing your everyday work.

I think your colleagues would not appreciate you talking through every step you’re doing in your development, in your everyday life. So getting used to that format takes some time. So like doing just interviews is gonna help you actually get acquainted with it and get used to that format.

Yasi: What do you think are the factors or the uniqueness of a candidate that Google is looking for?

Maria Atanasova: It’s always that problem solving, this is the main thing. I think that there is this belief that a person can be taught or can learn anything. It’s not about the particular language, you know, or the frameworks or any kind of cool little new tools that are out there. It’s how you are solving problems, how you are approaching that, what is your way of thinking about them.

Because there is so much change happening in the software industry at all times that you cannot always know everything, but if you’re the type of person that knows how to find information, knows how to see a problem, and just know where to look for those solutions, or knows how to break it down into smaller problems or overall, just a person who thinks a product can find out this is an area we can improve or this is something that we can find a problem with, and we can iterate on.

That’s the type of attitude that most of these companies are looking for. Specifically, because there’s so much in-house knowledge, as I mentioned, that you need to learn that coming with outside of other experience can help, but there’s still going to be a learning period. So having that driven person that is ready to learn, that’s ready to problem solve, that’s the uniqueness that people usually are looking for.

And it requires a lot of that because I think in the software industry, a lot of the innovation comes from us as software developers. Yes, there’s a lot of other people involved. We work closely with product managers, with UX designers, and it’s always a collaborative effort, but so many of the ideas also just come from engineers, just wanting to try stuff out.

Like that’s where Gmail comes from. It was just like a small project that was started by a couple of engineers at Google, and it became something big, it became a staple in our world today. And that’s why this type of attitude of let’s just trying things out, let me see where there is a missing thing and find a way for myself to solve it and find a way to also inspire other people to join in solving it. Like that’s the type of attitude that is unique.

And it’s also these companies are just such an amazing place to learn, and it’s not just from the resource, it’s from the people. That’s, I think, the uniqueness that comes from because I always find myself that everyone was so much smarter than me and me and that for me was sometimes not very intimidating, but it also meant I have so much to learn from these people. Like there is so much different, and it’s not just one particular area because everyone has their own different life experiences, their own different kind of work experiences.

And it’s such a unique opportunity to just learn from your peers, from your colleagues, and just get everything around you. And as someone who came out of university and liked straight joint, I felt that this was the most amazing place to try that out and to have that learning ability from all the people around me, and you can meet so many cool people.

And because you have that thing in common of being these problem solvers, in every area, even outside of work, you find that attitude, whether that’s going to be in the sports, clubs that you can join, whether that’s going to be in the board game ones, which I was always a part of. You always find that attitude, and that makes for such a great bonding experience with your peers and colleagues.

So, I find that that’s a very amazing place to be in.

Yasi: Like all the things you mentioned, I get the impression that those companies are looking for people with some soft skills that are more important than hard skills.

Maria Atanasova: They can be, right? Like obviously, you do still need to be able to code like no one’s going to hire you if you can’t.

Yasi: That’s the basic.

Maria Atanasova: So, that that’s kind of it, you do need to meet the bar, you do need to

When I say like problem-solving, that is usually tied to algorithms, right? Because that’s how software juniors are evaluated. Like you might not be applying that in your everyday work the same way as you’re doing interviews, but it’s the best way that you can find a signal of that problem-solving.

So, It’s not like you can go and just say like, Hey, I’m great at problem-solving, hire me. Like, you still need that preparation and dedicated time. It’s just that we’re looking for it in a different way. We’re looking for the problem, like not how well do you solve an algorithm or whether you know of a particular way to solve it, but how do you reach an unknown problem.

Because in your day-to-day life, you might be solving unknown problems. So how do you split it into tasks that you know how to solve. So, that’s kind of the key there, how do you approach it. And that can’t be, I think, attributed to soft skills, but it’s so much more because you still need that, some of that experience.

That’s why I feel that university candidates are at a great advantage because they just learned those algorithms, data structures, so it’s all fresh in their minds. It’s the industry candidates are coming from other companies that you usually need to brush off on those skills,

Yasi: Is it because when they were working in the other companies, their brains were trained in a way to approach certain things?

Maria Atanasova: No, because you don’t really use those types of algorithms in your day-to-day engineering life. It’s very weird, there are obviously some teams and companies that would go very, very deep into the innovations and like the brand-new stuff, of course, they’re going to be using it. But in your regular full-stack, what we call engineers, so someone who works on both what you see and the backend to back it up, you will not use these extremely complex algorithms that are part of interviews.

However, you would need the problem-solving skills to do it because no one’s going to tell you, well, at least no one’s going to encourage you to tell you, you need to do these five steps to reach the solution.

They’re going to tell you, well, we need this feature, and you’re the one who has to figure out how do I make it work, like, what are the steps there. So that’s why usually the companies use those algorithm types of in-coding questions as a proxy to see how people think. And when you have it fresh in your mind, like, I just learned those, it’s easier to make a connection because there are sometimes those small things that are needed to remember.

And because the interview is so short, like it’s 45 minutes, like there’s not enough time for you to spend a bit of more time to think, you kind of need to have that at the top of your mind to show it. Because it’s not like there is one right answer, but you need to remember what tools are available for you to reach that answer.

So that’s why it’s so important to prepare for those interviews and to know what to expect.

Yasi: And then, are there any interviewees that you still remember from your time at Google, in the interview community board?

Maria Atanasova: I think that for me, I interviewed like for a team match my interns.

So those to me are most memorable, I think, because I ended up actually seeing those people in person and so going through their journey. So for me, that was such an exciting thing to see from an interview, like reading their interview feedback, reading what their wants and dreams are like, so to speak for a team, explaining to them about like what we’re doing, you can feel that excitement, that spark thing that reminded me very much of my journey.

So, that is why it’s very close to my heart — and so seeing them go through the whole process and then joining the team and being there for them, like guiding them through the whole thing. I know that that for me was something very special.

Yasi: It’s very fulfilling.

Maria Atanasova: Yeah, absolutely. Even though I was a host once, I was part of the team when we had interviews before, and I always was in the row of having to guide them in some way, even if I wasn’t directly their manager or host, it was still something there.

So seeing those people then proceed to stay at Google or proceed in other companies and seeing them prosper, it’s amazing because you recognize that spark in them in that initial interview.

Yasi: You were one of them before, right?

Maria Atanasova: Yeah. I’m hoping it was as fulfilling for my host as it was for me because like you see that something, you see that potential, and you’re also the one helping guide it. And when you see them later on succeed, it’s amazing.

Yasi: If you really want to achieve something that has a dream, and then, later on, you are part of the process of someone else’s going through the same journey as you did, it’s a very interesting experience.

Maria Atanasova: It is. I enjoyed it, but I also felt like that’s kind of my duty to do it because I was one of those interns, so it was my duty to pay it back to others who are in the same position as me to give that chance like to find that even if you don’t see all the boxes where everything, all of the heart experience that is needed. If you see that potential and harvest it and guide it and teach that, it’s amazing.

And I think that these companies allow you for that because we have that very close relationship between teammates that, you can have that mentorship and a bond between people because you work so closely and you always have to, because it’s very much, even though you work alone, there’s so much about asking questions and answering questions because no one has all the knowledge.

Yasi: You collaborate and help each other.

Maria Atanasova: Exactly. So that’s why it’s so satisfying to see all of those. Even if it’s not just others who you’re mentoring, like even your colleagues, like for me, that it was so satisfying to see the people around me succeeding and moving forward because you see that and you root for them, and you want the best for them because you see how talented they are and how much they can do.

And you just want everyone else to recognize it as well.

Yasi: Yeah. It’s a great working culture in a way. So I’m sure a lot of audiences out there, maybe some of them are software developers wanting to join those companies. What tips would you give to them? Not the standard one, but the ones that you really think that most of the people might not do it, but you increase your chance of getting it if you do this stuff?

Maria Atanasova: You definitely need to prepare, do not underestimate it.

Even if you are an amazing software developer, a software engineer in your day-to-day life, the interviews are a specific type, as I mentioned. You need some preparation, and especially if you’re coming from the industry and you have that experience, you need to brush up on those skills. There are amazing resources online to try out those questions.

There are amazing books that you can try. And you just need to remember how to do that type of process where, you know, you don’t have a compiler or like, even if you do, you cannot really test your code with tests, you can only manually test them. Go through that process, try to time yourself.

There are these great websites. I think one that I hear a lot of candidates use, you know, like that I’ve checked is called leet code, L E E T code, they have a lot of questions and also questions that were previously asked by different companies. So you can try it out, but the most important thing is to time yourself. The interview is short, even though it’s 45 minutes, you’re not going to be problem-solving for 45 minutes.

Try to measure yourself in like 35 to 40 minutes and talk through everything that you’re doing, not just code, talk it, because people usually underestimate how much time it takes when you’re speaking and not just thinking. And that is the time of the interview. You need to be able to go through it, explain your thought, and be fully done.

And don’t be too confident, like always test, even if you know everything is right, test it. Maybe you missed something, you never know. The interview is a very, very stressful environment. That is something that you might think that you will be okay, and maybe people are, but I know for myself it was always a very, very nervous experience.

So trying to have as many of that trials before you do the interview is going to help you not be as nervous or scared because you already know how the interview looks like. There’s so much information online, try to find it. A lot of these big companies have a standard way of doing get reviews.

Usually, your recruiter is going to tell you what the formats are going to be. Try to find example questions, try to find ways to train because at the end of the.

Yes, the companies are trying to find a way to evaluate your problem solving and your way of thinking, but they are doing three through a very standard way.

So, you can train for it. You can prepare yourself to be kind of more agile whenever those questions are asked, so you have all the tools at your disposal.

And most importantly, just try. Even if you see an advertisement online and you say, well, I don’t fill all the requirement boxes, it doesn’t matter.

You can always try it. What’s the worst that can happen? They’re going to say no. No one’s going to blacklist you or say like, Hey, this person applied when they weren’t ready,

Yasi: There’s no limit on trying.

Maria Atanasova: There are no limits. Your recruiter is gonna, like. If you go through the interviews and it wasn’t successful, your interviewer might say, Hey, you can try again in a year.

We’re going to be happy if you try again in a year, or we expect you to gain a bit more experience or something, but there is no point in not trying. Maybe it’s not going to happen, but at least I’m gaining some experience because this is still a useful experience on how to interview. A lot of software companies have very similar processes, doing one is already giving you experience.

So, that is already good. Even if you don’t achieve your final goal of getting a job, it’s still a very useful process. And that’s why you just need to find those opportunities.

Yasi: Keep trying, trying is part of the preparation process.

Maria Atanasova: Exactly. Yes, because you never know what’s going to happen.

You never know whether someone’s going to see that spark in you that you didn’t know existed because that’s what the interviewers are for. That’s where the committees are for because they might see something that you didn’t know was there. Because you either knew, or maybe no one ever mentioned that to you, but that’s the beauty of it, that there are a lot of people involved, so there are so many more chances for you to be noticed and to find something. And for students, try to intern as much as you can, this is such a valuable thing to do because you actually can then understand much better whether, first of all, if the industry is for you, that career path is for you, because in IT there are so many options.

Yes, you can have a software engineering degree, but you might choose to become a product manager, or you might want to choose to become a UX designer, and you usually need to see it out there, because even though university might give you a glimpse, it’s not the same as the real-world experience. So, try to get yourself out there, try to see it. I know that it might sometimes be Oh, but in summer, I just want to rest. Yes, that’s, of course, a very good point, and some people need it, but I find myself I was re-energized by doing those internships. And for me getting that experience was so valuable. And it also allows you to explore. I, for example, would have never discovered Switzerland if it wasn’t for my internship.

Yasi: Because you wanted to live in the US?

Maria Atanasova: Because that was my big thing.

And I tried the internship in the US, I tried internships in Switzerland, and I got to travel the world, explore that and find whether that’s a thing for me, because that’s why I wanted to come back to Switzerland. I did my internship; I fell in love with this country. So for me, that was, well, this was a place I really want to come back to at this certain point in my life.

So, it gives you that unique opportunity. Maybe the company that you are trying, maybe they don’t have international offices. That’s also fine, but it also gives you a glimpse of what it is like to work, to have a daily job, something, some responsibilities that are not university ones.

And it can be such a big shock when you’re coming from a place where you have your parents to pay the bills, or you have. Now it’s different. You earn the salary; you pay rent maybe. And you also see what it’s like to be a working professional, whether that’s something that’s going to get you excited or whether it’s something that you need to find alternatives for.

Yasi: Thank you so much for all the tips and your personal experiences that you share with the audience. I will leave your contact details in the show notes if that’s okay. And thank you so much for being here.

Maria Atanasova: Thank you for having me.